Talk:Respect currency

Proposition for pratical implementation of respect currency

The respect currency can be composed of two parts: the respect part and the digital currency part which is exchangeable for real money.

Problems with single component respect currency

The respect currency cannot be realized solely in terms of the digital currency because it does not fulfill two of the requirements of the respect currency given below.

1. "Once given, respect currency should gradually diminish in time, so that the respect should be gained constantly"
   • This can lead to uncontrollable inflation if there is just a digital currency part in respect currency. Respect theory works equally well if the players want to collect more buying power without diminisihing the value of the currency. However, in this case the 'respect' component is washed out of the concept of respect currency. Real respect is something that needs to be renewed from time to time.
2. "Highly respected people should be able to show more respect (i.e., their respect is valued more by the society)"
   • In terms of money, does this requirement read 'rich people can dole out more money' or 'rich people's money is worth more than poor people's money'? If there would be a separate respect component in the respect currency, it could be expected that the words of a respected elder weigh more heavily than those of a new kid in the block.

Digital currency component of respect currency: Bitcoin

Bitcoin is virtual currency. Bitcoin could represent the digital currency component of respect currency. Bitcoin is superior to the normal currencies for the following reasons:

1. It does not suffer from inflation as normal currencies do (inflation can be controlled and is predictable as what comes to reserves)
2. Central banks can not control the generation of the currency
3. Banks are not needed in transactions
4. Bitcoins are fully exchangeable for real money and products
5. Bitcoins are virtual, which means that operating the virtual money system is cheap
6. Bitcoins cannot be traced or forged
7. Bitcoins can be split into smaller and smaller 'pieces'

Bitcoins can be acquired by 'mining', in exchange for goods, services and real money. At the moment, in the creation phase of the crypto currency bitcoins can be simply earned by dedicating servers to the p2p-network. In the future the reward will be based more on traffice control resources.

Risks with Bitcoins

Possible problems (see also EFF article):

• Powerful server providers collect more bitcoins in their reserves (this is balanced to some extent by randomization of the distribution process and by diminishing the reward over time)
• At present, small size of bitcoin market can lead to large fluctuations in demand prices (free market philosophy)
• if popularity is gained, direct intervention attempt of traditional banking institutions

Even if these risks are real, no harm is done if the bitcoins are not taken out of the virtual system. They can still be used as prototype of respect currency, whose transaction mechanism for real currency has already been established and therefore collecting them as a bonus on top of real salary, for example, would be a motivating factor for many knowledge workers (even if the amounts would be small), because it could be done completely independently of the bureaucrats of government institutions.

Respect component of the respect currency: Onor

• This component satisfies the properties of the respect currency not taken care of by the digital currency component. The reward system of Opasnet could function as follows

1. Opasnet user can earn respect currency by recommendation (based on automated reward or user recommendation). Automated recommendations are activated when a certain standardized task has been performed (creating a new page with content, publishing a paper, winning Noble price etc.). User initiated reward can be a thumbs up apprecitation signal from a reader of a web page or grading of the web page. In this case (similarly to Facebook) it is known who the recommending person is ("user A likes this page") and personalized weight can be given to the recommendation to satisfy the principle 'respected person's respect is more valuable than less respected person's respect'.
2. The respect part of the respect currency can be defined to decay in time, for example according to the formula given on the main page. When a person accumulates respect currency, over time the respect part may vanish completely leaving only the digital money part which is exchangeable for real currency all the time.
3. The problem is that the respect part has an infinite reservoir whereas the digital currency part is limited for example to a finite amount of bitcoins. Especially in the testing phase of the respect currency one may want to change the inner workings of the reward system and study the flow of the currency within Opasnet users. Therefore, it is sensible to observe the dynamics over restricted periods of time.
4. Onors and bitcoins are related to each other by the following procedure: The total onor 'density' triggered during the time period (which may be defined to be an hour, a day, a week or a month, depending on the intensity of the useage of Opasnet) will be denoted by Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle O(N,t) \equiv \sum_n o_{n}(t) } , where the index Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle n} sums over all onors from all sources and the argument Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle N} denotes the Nth time interval Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle t \in [T_N, T_{N+1}]} . The onor function Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle o_n(t) } satisfies Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle \int_0^{\infty} \!ds\, o_n(s) = 1 } . It rises sharply when it is triggered and has a decaying tale which may extend over several time intervals. The total amount of 'honor' stored in the time interval is given by Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle O_{tot}(N) \equiv \int_{T_N}^{T_{N+1}}\! ds\, O(N,s) } . Let Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle B(N)} denote the number of bitcoins that we can afford to use in the Nth time interval (If we acquired Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle B_{tot}} for a test period of one year, then, in a month we can use Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle B(N) = B_{tot}/12} . However, if we require more bitcoins from the market in the meanwhile, the $B(N)$s can differ from month to month). Each onor generates and equivalent of Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle B(N)/O_{tot}(N)} bitcoins to the honored person's bitcoin purse within the period N.
5. Because an unlimited number of onors can be generated within each period, the value of a single onor goes down if more are not obtained from the market. In the testing phase this probably does not bother Opasnet users too much because the bitcoin amounts will be small but in the longer run one could device a way of increasing the amounts B(N) so that the average bitcoin value of an onor stays roughly constant. Alternatively, one may compensate by keeping statistics of onors and say, once a year give a larger bitcoin bonus to the most honorable members of the community.
6. One may also want to test the effects of the decaying tales on the values of the honors. For example, one can define the time intervals so long that the onors will die off before the next period begins.

Game plan

• dedicate a few servers for p2p and earn a few bitcoins by mining, for example.
• Since in mining bitcoins are not bought directly, but indirectly (and the amounts needed for testing are very small) there is probably no legal hinderance from THL part to prevent Opasnet users from utilizing a bitcoin delivery system.
• device an automated onor distribution system with predefined reward 'quantization'
• invent a relationship between onor and bitcoin (see above for an example)
• Start distributing fractions of two-component respect currency to Opasnet users. To make the game more interesting, the time intervals should be defined to be no longer than a day, perhaps. The users could also follow the evolution of the bitcoins in the exchange markets against real currencies.

Properties of the respect currency in different approaches

How to read discussions

Fact discussion: .
Opening statement: It should show the respect of the giver about an act of the receiver. Once given, it should gradually diminish in time, so that the respect should be gained constantly. It should be tradable to some material benefits, such as traditional money. Highly respected people should be able to show more respect (i.e., their respect is valued more by the society). There should be some kind of accounting, so that the acts worth respect are documented (i.e. it should be difficult to create fake respect by e.g. two people falsely respecting each other more and more and thus accumulating respect currency). A person doing respectful deeds full-time should be able to live with the respect currency he/she receives and trades for traditional money. Closing statement: Partly accepted (see table on the article page) (Resolved, i.e., a closing statement has been found and updated to the main page.)
Argumentation: The respect currency should have the following properties: ⇤--0: . How is this respect currency actually any different from traditional money? --Juha Villman 11:15, 25 November 2009 (UTC) (type: truth; paradigms: science: attack) ⇤--5: . The point is not that respect currency has similar properties to money. The point is that it has some properties that money does not and cannot have. The major difference is that money measures scarce things, where someone's negotiating power sets prices of goods to high enough a level where people are interested in transactions. Respect currency works in situations where there is no scarcity (e.g. public information), so nobody has negotiating power, and the money price is zero. Respect currency works because it is free to give away but valuable to receive. --Jouni 22:10, 25 November 2009 (UTC) (type: truth; paradigms: science: attack) ----6: . Money applies to material goods. Respect currency applies to immaterial goods. --Alexandra Kuhn 11:45, 1 December 2009 (UTC) (type: truth; paradigms: science: comment) ⇤--7: . A starving person living on the streets can earn a high respect due to his streetwise knowledge, but can still be hungry because he is unemployed. How would this make a person any better? --Tif 13:00, 11 December 2009 (UTC) (type: truth; paradigms: science: attack) It should show the respect of the giver about an act (or the property) of the receiver. ⇤--16: . An alternative approach looks at ongoing evaluations, not transfers of amounts of respect. --Jouni 00:04, 15 August 2011 (EEST) (type: truth; paradigms: science: attack) ----1: . Traditional money already have this property --Juha Villman 11:15, 25 November 2009 (UTC) (type: truth; paradigms: science: comment) :⇤--15: . If I pay you a euro for an apple I do so because I receive the good, not because I pay you respect. --Alexandra Kuhn 11:46, 1 December 2009 (UTC) (type: truth; paradigms: science: attack) ⇤--8: . True but does not tell why the statement would be wrong. --Jouni 00:04, 15 August 2011 (EEST) (type: truth; paradigms: science: attack) Once given, it should gradually diminish in time, so that the respect should be gained constantly. ⇤--17: . In an alternative approach, there is no need to diminish respect, as it can be evaluated again at any time. --Jouni 00:04, 15 August 2011 (EEST) (type: truth; paradigms: science: attack) ----2: . Traditional money already have this property (See time value of money) --Juha Villman 11:15, 25 November 2009 (UTC) (type: truth; paradigms: science: comment) ⇤--9: . discounting factor can cover this as well --Tif 13:00, 11 December 2009 (UTC) (type: truth; paradigms: science: attack) ⇤--5: . --Jouni 00:04, 15 August 2011 (EEST) (type: truth; paradigms: science: attack) It should be tradable to some material benefits, such as traditional money. ----10: . Can you say why? --Alexandra Kuhn 11:50, 1 December 2009 (UTC) (type: truth; paradigms: science: comment) ←--11: . Because only then it will motivate people who want to make their living doing things that produce respect. Amateurs can be motivated without money. But one purpose of the respect currency is to create high enough incentives so that people may change their careers. --Jouni 00:04, 15 August 2011 (EEST) (type: truth; paradigms: science: defence) Highly respected people should be able to show more respect (i.e., their respect is valued more by the society). ⇤--12: . Depends. I once saw a karate sensei who was respected by everyone just because he was sensei. He and they argued because he put effort in being so good in karate means that he has earned the respect. (Same could apply to factory owners, football and media stars, presidents.) But in reality people should be respected because of their properties and deeds (e.g. being polite, not being arrogant). So even if people are highly respected they sometimes shouldn't be and thus the value of their respect to others should not be valued more. --Alexandra Kuhn 11:50, 1 December 2009 (UTC) (type: truth; paradigms: science: attack) ⇤--13: . About 2 centuries ago, some tribes were using the respect system to determine the destiny's of the whole tribe. The elderly was most respected and thus possessed the power over everyone. Are we going back to that path? --Tif 13:00, 11 December 2009 (UTC) (type: truth; paradigms: science: attack) There should be some kind of accounting, so that the acts worth respect are documented (i.e. it should be difficult to create fake respect by e.g. two people falsely respecting each other more and more and thus accumulating respect currency). ----3: . Traditional money already have this property --Juha Villman 11:15, 25 November 2009 (UTC) (type: truth; paradigms: science: comment) A person doing respectful deeds full-time should be able to live with the respect currency he/she receives and trades for traditional money. ----4: . Traditional money already have this property --Juha Villman 11:15, 25 November 2009 (UTC) (type: truth; paradigms: science: comment) :⇤--14: . Not if you are doing it for free voluntarily. --Alexandra Kuhn 11:52, 1 December 2009 (UTC) (type: truth; paradigms: science: attack) ⇤--11: . --Jouni 00:04, 15 August 2011 (EEST) (type: truth; paradigms: science: attack)